Family Roles in Addiction and Recovery | Amory Mowrey

00:00 Introduction by Whitney Menarcheck
01:02 Amory Mowrey’s thoughts on recovery stigma
02:02 Amory’s lived experience with addiction and recovery
05:22 The role of peer advocates
08:12 Challenges of adjusting to a sober life
13:04 Importance of setting boundaries
17:39 Family dynamics and recovery

Whitney | she/her (00:45)
Hello and welcome to Recovery Conversations. I’m Whitney Menarcheck and with me today is Amarie Mowry. So Amarie, tell me what is it about recovery stigma that brought you to meet with me today and what can we talk about? What is it that you would like to share?

Amory Mowrey (01:02)
Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me again. And, you know, I just any conversation around recovery and mental health that can help bring awareness to people’s lived experiences and to just the topic and bring out the light is something that I’m always I’m always interested in talking about and invested in seeing so

If anytime anybody asks me to come and talk about, you know, my lived experience as a person in recovery or, um, you know, just what that looks like in the world and how we move through the world. I’m always stoked on it.

Whitney | she/her (01:38)
Well, thank you because that’s a big part of being able to bust any sigma and raise awareness is just sharing stories. It’s the best way to kind of break down barriers is to show the person behind the experience. So I appreciate your willingness to go there. So tell me a little bit about what is that lived experience you’ve had?

Amory Mowrey (02:02)
Yeah, for sure. So, gosh, I, you know, move through the experience of, you know, of addiction and mental health struggles from a pretty young age, growing up in the Bay Area and.

You know, and, and then having moved through a lot of different forms of institutions, you know, um, encounters with legal institutions, um, you know, treatment centers, outpatient, residential inpatient, you know, psychiatric support, um, you know, all kinds of different touch points with the system and, um, and a lot of, a lot of, um, struggling during that time. And, uh,

And then I spent some time in New York and ended up working with a peer advocate. And that was kind of the missing link for me was to work with somebody who had lived experience and alongside a lot, a lot of other forms of support, um, alongside medication, alongside, you know, uh, work with a therapist and alongside good family support, which I was blessed to have. Um, but, but to have that connection with somebody who, um,

who really, another, you know, young man who really knew what it was like to move through addiction and then move through recovery. Um, that really kind of, was that missing link for me to help, uh, help me step into recovery. Yeah.

Whitney | she/her (03:25)
That’s great. How would you describe the difference, the role that the peer advocate played in your journey?

Amory Mowrey (03:35)
Yeah, this is a great question. I think for me it was just, at that point in time in my life, I was 20 years old when I first entered recovery and when I started my long-term sustained recovery. And at the time, I just don’t think I was very trusting of a lot of providers. Not that I thought that they were necessarily bad intentioned or…

I just didn’t really feel like people understood me. I think that’s probably a pretty common thing for a lot of people with addiction and mental health struggles and also a common thing for a lot of teenagers or young adults. And so the culmination of the two made me particularly distrusting. And it was one of those things where it was like, you can’t bullshit a bullshitter, you know what I mean? Like where he was really able to just call me on it and be like, I couldn’t run circles around him. I couldn’t like try and be like, you don’t understand. You don’t get it. You don’t know what it’s like.

He was like, I really do actually. And I have a solution for you if you’re willing to listen. And that was, I think really the difference to me was that this was somebody who could, didn’t have quite a strict of clinical boundaries about what they could divulge about their own personal story as a therapist or psychiatrist might, somebody who could disclose their lived experience in a very significant way.

And then somebody who could also spend time with me in the community in a way that was different than a therapist or a doctor might. So it was not just this was in somebody I was meeting in an office for an hour. This was somebody who spent time in my home that took me out of the community that really was like a liaison or a guide through life in a very different way. Yeah.

Whitney | she/her (05:22)
Yeah. And that’s an interesting point talking about going into the community because with traditional services, the more professional with the degree professionals, it does it ends at the door, which pros and cons to that, right? I understand privacy and boundaries, but that’s then only addressing one part of a person’s life when, you know, maybe it’s for 15 minutes or with that.

provider, but then you have the rest, what, 23 hours and 45 minutes of your day to get through. So, what were some of the things that out in the community that your peer helped you

Amory Mowrey (06:03)
Yeah, I mean, this is really just like how to live life sober, right? So I remember being like, you know, like, how do you go through a day sober? And I remember him being like, you just do all the things that you do while you’re getting high, but you just don’t get high before you do them. You know what I mean? I thought it blew my mind, right? So like going out to a restaurant, right? This is just it. You just eat instead of getting high and then eating it. You know what I mean? So it’s like really a lot of different aspects. And

So, you know, we would go out and play, you know, play some golf or we would go and he would take me to like poker nights with a bunch of his friends that were in recovery. So he had a good, you know, network of people in recovery. Um, a bunch of young men, you know, that was, that was a young man and women, but there was a strong, you know, connection of young men there, kind of like a stag style. Um, maybe just for reference, a stag meeting would be a, you know, an AA group or a peer support group. That’s, that’s all men. Um,

And so, you know, just like a strong community of young men that were in recovery. And so we would do all kinds of things together. Like I said, you know, we’d go to a meeting and then fellowship afterwards. And I’m not a, I’m not a big book thumper. I’m not saying the 12 steps were the only way by any means, but that was one aspect of it. Right. You know, you go to a meeting, talk about recovery, and then afterwards go on fellowship in a way that was really well connected. So he kind of plugged me in to like, Hey, here’s a great meeting and here’s a great group of guys. And then beyond that too, like, Oh, we’re all going to go out and, you know,

go play around a golf on Sunday, or we’re having a poker night, or we’re going to watch, you know, watch the game, watch the fights at our house, or have a potluck dinner, you know. And being like a sober companion, or a coach, or an advocate through that process, especially in the beginning, you know, as things kind of progressed, and I moved through my recovery, that started to separate a little bit, and it was like, okay, he could step back and let me kind of just run my own path. But in the beginning,

of those first couple months of recovery when it’s so scary and tender and fresh and you don’t know how to do anything, you know what I mean? And so raw, having somebody there to navigate that was super important.

Whitney | she/her (08:12)
I can imagine it makes me think about, I am not a person with lived experience with substance use. I have my own lived experience with mental health, but I’ve worked with individuals with substance use and it always struck me when they would talk about having to redesign their days and what to do with the time that’s no longer being spent on obtaining, using, recovering, et cetera. And

I think that’s something that a lot of people who don’t have that lived experience really overlook and dismiss the impact of, okay, here you are. And yeah, a lot of the things are going to do the same restaurants, things like that, but there’s a, it’s different. And it can take a, my understanding is that it can take a while to adjust to that new normal, so to speak.

Amory Mowrey (09:05)
Yeah, I mean, it’s just, you really, it’s, um, it’s strange thing to think about. Like, I really didn’t know how to, what a day looked like, well, like a normal day looked like, right? Like.

I had to relearn how to live in a certain way. You know what I mean? Like all the parts were there. Like I knew how to go to a restaurant. I knew how to play golf right now. You know what I mean? Like I knew how to do these things sort of individually, but to string them together in a day. And what, how do you actually like, what does a functional day look like? Like what are normal eating times? What’s a normal sleeping habit? Like how do you interact with people? All those pieces were sort of there, you know, in a semi-functional way, you know, but to string them together, like.

multiple days, weeks, and months in a row was foreign. It was a foreign thing. I’d never done that before. Like, I started using pretty seriously as a, you know, as a young teenager. So for all of my, you know, adult life, so to speak, or young adult life, anytime where you’d be learning those things and how to navigate life in that way was, I never had any experience with that. It was a totally brand new concept to me.

Whitney | she/her (10:12)
Right? It makes me think of also, I’ve worked in the criminal justice system and they talk a lot about rehabilitation, but in many ways it’s just habillitation. It’s teaching skills. And that’s hard. I mean, having to cope with triggers and cravings and then on top of that, going from almost like zero to a hundred on like adult responsibilities kind of stuff, that’s a lot of pressure.

Amory Mowrey (10:23)
Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It’s also like just somebody who I could, like I said, I mean, I think the trust part was such a big thing, you know, like.

To me, the idea of somebody asking you to get sober is effectively asking you to jump out of an airplane without a parachute and just trust them. This is your entire safety net, the things that have kept you alive and functional, maybe not effective anymore, but at some point in time, that was there for a reason, that use or those ways that we learn how to navigate the pain and suffering and our experience of the world.

If somebody’s never done that before and they ask you to do it, it’s like, I’m not really sure if I’m going to live through this actually. I don’t really believe that you know for a fact that this is going to be okay. But somebody’s like, I’ve done this like five times. I’ve already jumped out of the plane five times and I promise you it’ll be okay. And if you can trust the person and come to know them and have some faith in them, that’s such a huge, huge part for me.

Whitney | she/her (11:39)
Yeah. And you mentioned that you were also so young whenever you started. And I can’t help but think that would be a key part for any teen, any young adult, that you have someone that isn’t like this authority figure. Because there’s just that natural desire to kind of pull away and become an individual of your own. So to have someone who can talk to you in a different way and not be like…

you have to do this or you’re going to mandate something probably just resonates different too.

Amory Mowrey (12:16)
For sure. Yeah. I mean, autonomy is so important to developing, you know, young adults and to, and anybody remotely authoritative is going to be rebelled against, even if they’re what they’re saying makes sense. You know what I mean? Um, that was definitely a big part too, for sure. Yeah. Um, and also somebody who could just kind of call me on my ship and I would do that, you know, in a certain way, a therapist and again, for better or for worse, you know, I, I.

My therapists were so valuable to me and I have so much respect for what they do. And it’s just different, it’s just different parts of the puzzle, right? But a therapist might not be able to call you in the same way, you know, that a peer can.

Whitney | she/her (12:55)
Yeah. And what does that do for the person to be called out in that way?

Amory Mowrey (13:04)
Well, for me, like, you know, it was interesting, like.

Um, like the final sort of call out for me was that he was just like, look, man, I’m not gonna, I can’t do this anymore. Like, can’t work with you anymore. Like I just couldn’t get it. You know, I was, I just couldn’t get it. I, he’d been working with me for a couple of months and, and I was just pushing the boundaries hard and not like boundaries in terms of, you know, you know, ethics, but boundaries in terms of like really pushing back against him, you know, really testing the waters, like, can I trust this person? Right. Like is this person, can they?

can they be the support, right? Really testing the waters on that, yeah, totally. And eventually he was like, he was like, dude, look, I’m just a person, like, this isn’t, like, I love you, but I’m not doing this with you, you know what I mean? And the idea of somebody else, of losing somebody important to me again, because of my use, and the ability for him to just be like, I’m walking on this, that was a call out, right? Like that was like his call, being like, I’m calling you out on this, dude, like, I’m not, this behavior, like not okay for, for…

Whitney | she/her (13:37)
You’re testing him, yeah.

Amory Mowrey (14:05)
of this relationship, you know? And that was actually, I think, the thing that really kicked me into my first serious attempt at recovery because I just was not willing to lose that person again, or a person that was important to me again. And then, you know, and there was plenty of other sort of collabs like that before where you was really able to be like…

Dude, what you’re doing just isn’t… Like, this is not the way, you know what I mean? In a way that was just, I’m not sure exactly what it was, but it was just different than any other provider had been able to really do for me before, to really make me look at my behavior in a way that, I think probably because it wasn’t authoritative, right? Like, I didn’t feel like he was attacking me, or like I didn’t feel the need to rebel against the call out. I was just like, damn dude, like I’m just hurting this person I care about, that sucks. You know?

Whitney | she/her (14:58)
Wow. That’s so interesting and just really moving. That he, you know, a lot of times people don’t want to put boundaries. They think that boundaries are like unloving, but here’s this person that you respected that you cared about, who cared about you. And he, by putting a boundary, that’s what really like clicked for you. You were like, oh shit, no, I like found.

Amory Mowrey (15:24)
Yeah.

Whitney | she/her (15:26)
Sometimes those boundaries are necessary.

Amory Mowrey (15:30)
this is such a diff- it’s like the most important part I think. You know, in the work that I do now, working in the field and ever since, the hardest part for me has been working with families and trying to help them navigate boundaries for loved ones with this. Because like my family set a boundary when I was- that I could not live in their home. And so for some time I was homeless and then my grandparents took me in and ultimately them setting that boundary is what got me into treatment for the first time and kind of planted the seed.

It didn’t stick that time, but if they hadn’t set that boundary, I would probably not have had the motivation to change. Maybe I would. I mean, who knows? But it was, it was really painful at the time, but it, but looking back on it was probably the best thing they ever did for me. And I get so many family and I, but it’s, it’s such a, like, even after years of working the field, I don’t really have like a good answer when parents are like, should I?

let them keep staying in the house. Like how firm of a boundary should I set? I’m like, I don’t know, right? Like it’s happened to work for me, but it’s really is like that tough love versus like the compassion and just letting it like, I’m sure a lot of people would disagree with me and people would fall on both sides of the spectrum about what the right thing to do is, but I never know how to advise family when they’re like, what do I do? I’m like, you do what you think you’re gonna be, what you can live with, you know?

Whitney | she/her (16:56)
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s all you can. There’s definitely no cookie cutter boundary. And at the end of the day, we’re not the ones living with the decision. So how can you tell someone, yeah, boundaries are important and they can be very helpful, but it doesn’t, man, it’s not easy. I mean, people with, regardless of substance use, have a hard time with boundaries. So let’s recognize that.

Amory Mowrey (17:18)
Totally.

But they’re like, I think like the ability to like know where your boundaries are and set them well and then stick by them wherever you choose to put them. I think is one of the most important things in healing family dynamics that contribute to continued substance use or other mental health challenges.

Whitney | she/her (17:39)
Yeah, yeah, that’s an interesting point. Like it doesn’t have to be, you can never live with me again, but maybe the boundary is you cannot show up after midnight kind of thing. And if you stick to that, I don’t know, boundaries can be like, I think of them like bumper bowling. It can help someone kind of navigate until they get on their path. Because we’re not setting people up for success if they don’t know what to expect.

So boundaries are just another way of just saying, hey, here’s a little bit of like guidelines. You’ll be successful if you kind of just stick with them for a little bit kind of thing. Yeah.

Amory Mowrey (18:17)
Totally. I also, I really do think that substance use is a family dynamic thing, right? Like obviously the individual has to take accountability and responsibility, but I think that, you know, family systems, even if it’s not biological family, but you know, sort of family systems, meaning the people that we surround ourselves with, blood or choice, learn to have this homeostasis, right? Like the ability to sort of self-moderate based on…

history, right? So like even well intentioned or, you know, are finding people are finding ways that support the use or the because that’s historically what it’s always been, right? So it’s learned how to adopt to that. And so I think family members setting, setting boundaries, and again, it doesn’t matter where they are, right? Like you get that’s their choice personally, where to put the boundary, but, but

sort of starting to reorient that homeostasis into a point of like continuity or structure that doesn’t, that we’re not just playing through the old stories and the old patterns that have allowed this behavior to manifest and exist for however long years or decades, I think is like a, is a super important step in changing that dynamic.

Whitney | she/her (19:41)
Right. It comes back to what you said. There’s, it served a purpose. It dealt with pain. Even if the functionality of it was minimal or short-lived. And if the, some of the causing factors, certainly not putting it on the families entirely, but if some of those behaviors that led to it in the first place aren’t addressed, it’s just gonna be, again, setting someone up for failure, trying to put someone back in the same setting.

without any of that changing, it can’t just be them. Yes, they have to take ownership and make those changes, just like we all do. And then how do others adapt to best support that person’s success?

Amory Mowrey (20:24)
Right. Yeah. It’s not at all about fall. It’s just the reality. It’s like, okay, if you have a puzzle, I think about it like a family as a jigsaw puzzle. You know, if you’re a jigsaw puzzle and you have one piece, this, the, the adapter and you take them out and you change, sort of change the piece, you know, put them in treatment and ask them to adapt who they are. And then come back to the family system jigsaw puzzle. It’s much more likely that one piece will readapt to fit the puzzle. That the whole puzzle will readapt to fit them unless the whole puzzle is actively trying to do that. Right.

So unless the whole family is working on those dynamics, again, well-intentioned or not, chances are that the individual is gonna fall back into that years or decades old pattern that they’ve learned. And I think that, yeah, so anyways, no need to be too esoteric about the whole thing, but I do think boundaries are really important.

Whitney | she/her (21:15)
No. Well, I think there’s just so much there and could easily go down the rabbit hole with you on that one. Because there’s a lot of a lot put on the person and again, have to take accountability and do it for yourself and think and like have that internal desire. But also, you know, we have to recognize the play, the impact that systems have family systems.

Community systems, like, can’t just say, oh, it’s you. That’s very minimizing. So definitely right with you on that. And as a professional who’s in recovery and working in the field, you know, historically there hasn’t always been respect for that lived experience. And there’s more and more awareness of the value, finally. And what would be, I’m just curious, what would be something that you would want

healthcare professional to know who may not have that lived experience.

Amory Mowrey (22:20)
That’s a great question. Yeah, you’re right. It’s funny, you know, substance use, like, it basically every way lags about 20 years behind other movements, right? Like vets have known peers and lived experience. Like, you know, that’s important. Mental health has been doing peers and lived experience and substance use is finally like, oh, maybe, you know, finally starting to see that maybe we have a value too, which is great, you know? Yeah, but in terms of what I would want a provider to know, that’s a great question, you know, I think…

Whitney | she/her (22:37)
Oh.

Amory Mowrey (22:47)
It’s like, I don’t know how to really crystallize it into one, like, you know, it’s like a decade of, of moving through that world. It’s like, okay, what is that one? How does that crystallize into one thing? Um, I think it’s really just about.

I would want just providers to just examine their biases, right? Like the biases, I mean, that’s just true across the board, right? But like each person is going to have a unique based, I mean, probably every provider that doesn’t have lived experience has probably been around a family or a loved one that does. So they’re carrying some bias, just like we’re all carrying some form of bias. And so the question is just how much of that bias are you projecting onto every individual you meet who fits that sort of category? Um,

And I think it’s just with historically marginalized or disenfranchised populations, it’s easier to not look at your bias, like to just dismiss it because that’s what the conditioning is. Like these people are all the same and they all fit this one thing. They’re all drug seeking or they’re all, you know, don’t want to be in treatment or they all whatever.

whatever you had with your person that you’re now projecting on everybody else. Um, that’s just the main thing is just like really examine the bias because I don’t know if there’s any one thing that can be crystallized from people’s lived experience. Yeah.

Whitney | she/her (24:08)
Yeah. And hopefully there will be health professionals who hear that because it’s got it. It’s so important. So thank you. I know that was like kind of like curve ball for you. So I appreciate you going there with me.

Amory Mowrey (24:15)
Hehehe

No, no problem. I mean, it’s, I mean, I bring a ton of bias in, like I have to constantly check my bias, not because I want to, but because that’s just the nature of being human, right? Like it blows my mind. They’re like, I mean, I have to do this. I do this all the time with my clinical director where I’m like, I’ll start to get like frustrated with one of my clients. I’m like, why don’t they just get it? You know, I’m like, that’s insane. Like I didn’t get it so many times. And the only reason I ended up getting it,

Whitney | she/her (24:34)
Right.

Amory Mowrey (24:53)
Um, for today, at least is because somebody didn’t carry that bias into the picture, right? Somebody saw me as, as still having a chance, right? And it’s just crazy that like, even with years of lived experience and doing all these trainings and helping other people, that I’ll still like come to the table and be like, they just don’t want it enough. And I, I catch myself pretty quickly, you know what I mean? But I’m like, wow, you know, if that’s.

If that’s happening for me, then people who don’t have the experience must be really pervasive. Again, not bad intentions, just the nature of being human. Yeah.

Whitney | she/her (25:28)
Absolutely.

So before we wrap up, I do have one more question for you. If, and this may be another one that’s hard to kind of get down into one, but if people could take one thing away from our discussion, what would you like it to be?

Amory Mowrey (25:43)
I don’t know, we kind of went all over the place, sorry. I don’t know. Let’s just treat everybody like a human. Approach everybody with compassion and understanding that everybody is coming with their own unique story. As spoiler plate or cliche as that sounds, I think the whole sort of, I guess, topic of this.

Whitney | she/her (25:45)
We did, we did.

Amory Mowrey (26:12)
is stigma, right? Like that’s what this organization about is reducing stigma. I think that’s really where like we have to sort of fundamentally just start over every time we meet somebody, right? Like, okay, this is a new person, brand new experience. And kind of like with the same thing with the providers, like what am I bringing into this as the person who’s witnessing, you know? And I think that the more that we can kind of start over

with that like childlike curiosity of who this person is and, and you know, all the things that they’re bringing to the table is probably our best shot at giving them their best shot.

Whitney | she/her (26:59)
Yeah, I like that. That child curiosity. I think we could benefit from that in like so many ways.

Amory Mowrey (27:05)
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, that’s kind of like a little bit of the, the Buddhist or the Eastern philosophy of like approaching every situation. Like it’s your first time seeing it. You know, it’s like, wow, if this was my, if this was my first time experiencing this moment, what would it be like, you know, this is my first time meeting a person, all the curiosity and all the understanding and compassion and

none of the bullshit. You know, obviously that’s a little bit easier, sad that done, but sure would be nice, wouldn’t it?

Whitney | she/her (27:36)
Yeah, it would be. And hopefully we can all take that and at least for the rest of today, apply it and make it a new habit and then it just becomes routine. Well, thank you so much, Amarie. I really enjoyed talking with you and I’m just excited to hopefully hear about what you’re up to moving forward and please come back anytime so we can keep talking, keep learning.

Amory Mowrey (27:44)
Yeah.

That’s the hope.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me and for all the work that you’re doing for the community and for us.

Whitney | she/her (28:11)
Thank you.