From Amsterdam to America: A Different Approach to Addiction Car

00:00 Introduction and Background 05:00 Going to the Netherlands to Learn 07:04 The Soft and Hard Drug Classification 11:01 The Disease Model and Meeting Individuals Where They Are 13:27 Affordable and Accessible Healthcare Coverage 17:55 Changing the Perception of Addiction 24:17 Debunking Misconceptions: Addiction Services in the Netherlands 27:22 Accessibility of Treatment: Contrasting the Netherlands and the United States 28:56 The Role of the 12-Step Program in Recovery: A Comparison 33:08 The Impact of Legal and Healthcare Systems on Recovery 38:20 Recovery is Possible: Overcoming Challenges and Finding Support

Whitney (00:00)
Welcome to Reduce the Stigma, the podcast that raises the voices of individuals with lived experience, as well as the organizations and people who support them. Reduce the Stigma is brought to you by Straight Up Care, the comprehensive telehealth platform for peer support services. Straight Up Care, where recovery is powered by lived experience. And a special thank you to our sponsor, Syndicate 12, an online recovery community and social media platform. Visit syndicate12 .com. Together, recovery is possible.

I’m going to start today’s episode with a fact. In 2021, 106 ,699 lives were lost due to overdose. In that same year in the Netherlands, they saw only 298 deaths by overdose. The difference is astounding. And in today’s episode, I’m joined by Wes and Savannah, two students who are from the University of South Dakota.

and went over to the Netherlands, Amsterdam in particular, to learn about their policies, their treatment models, their healthcare coverage, and everything else that goes into supporting individuals with a substance use disorder. We may not end this episode with the magic solution to reduce the number of overdose deaths. We will though be able to walk away with ideas, with an understanding, with

potential ways and methods and approaches that we could apply here in the US to better serve individuals with substance use disorder. So stick around and listen because this is a really interesting conversation where we educate, we address some misunderstandings, including my own, and we really just talk about what it could look like if we bring some of what’s working elsewhere here into our country. So let’s get started.

Whitney (01:53)
Wes and Savannah, so great to have you with me today. Thank you for joining.

Savannah Murray (01:58)
Thanks for having us.

Wesley M McDonald (01:59)
for having us.

Whitney (02:00)
Yeah, so you two are students at the University of South Dakota and you’re studying addiction at least as one of your areas. And I’d like people to get to know you a little bit before we dive too deep into our convo. So do you mind just telling us a little bit about who you are?

Wesley M McDonald (02:19)
Sure, Savannah, would you like to go first?

Savannah Murray (02:20)
Sure. My name’s Savannah. I was born and raised in Sioux Falls. I’m a part of the master’s program of addiction counseling and prevention at USD. And so that’s something I’ve become pretty passionate about over COVID since then. And with my own personal struggles, I myself am in recovery. It’ll be two years this September. So that’s something that I’m, thank you, I’m excited about. So other than that, I’m just kind of a…

Whitney (02:44)
Congrats.

Savannah Murray (02:50)
plant mom with 37 plants and love a good book.

Whitney (02:56)
37? That’s amazing. How do you keep them all alive? Like, you need to write a book.

Savannah Murray (03:00)
It’s a trial and error. There’s been some view losses and it’s a lot of time in the greenhouse.

Whitney (03:09)
amazing. Wes, how about you?

Wesley M McDonald (03:13)
My name is Wesley and I have a little bit of a sore throat so if I’m coughing a little bit I apologize. I’m born and raised in North Bend, Washington about 30 minutes outside of Seattle. I’ve been in recovery since 2020 when I went to treatment and I had COVID. Can’t think of any better time to go to treatment. From there getting out of treatment really didn’t know.

where to go or what to do. And the University of South Dakota kind of just popped up on my radar for addiction treatment. And I started going for an addiction treatment undergrad, as well as I got talked into a social work undergrad as well. So I’ve been doing social work and addiction counseling. And I’ve become an addiction counselor in training a little bit over a year ago. And so I’ve been running an intensive outpatient program since then.

Whitney (03:52)
Thank you.

Wesley M McDonald (04:07)
and i’ve been blessed by being able to attend many twelve step groups and i’m very active in that community back in washington and here in south dakota as well

Whitney (04:19)
Great, thank you and congrats on your probably four years or upcoming four years and counselor and training. That’s awesome. Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (04:29)
Thank you.

Whitney (04:30)
Well, I invited you both on here. In fact, you were recommended by Dr. Moe, who works at the University of South Dakota. And because she went and led a group of students, you were two of the students who went with her to the Netherlands, Amsterdam in particular, to study and learn about a different cultures approach to addiction and drugs through policy and programs. And I thought, what a wonderful perspective.

to share with our audience. So I’d like to start with, you know, what was it like to first go to another country with the intention of learning specifically about that area?

Savannah Murray (05:17)
Do you want to go first or do you have any? I just thought it was really cool. Go ahead. You can go. I was just super excited because I mean I’m sure as most people kind of have heard or you know know Amsterdam is kind of very relaxed. A lot of things are decriminalized. However,

Wesley M McDonald (05:22)
I don’t know, I was gonna say I have no idea right now. I didn’t think on that, so.

Savannah Murray (05:40)
just hearing about the differences in how they do policies and their healthcare and that kind of stuff was just really intriguing for me. And then to kind of compare it to, you know, the United States, because I have never really been out of the country. I went once before a long time ago and it wasn’t, you know, we didn’t get a dive deep into the culture or anything like that and, you know, all that stuff. So learning the policies in my classes or my courses and then kind of comparing them to a different country was something I was really eager to learn about.

Wesley M McDonald (06:11)
I got to agree with Savannah. I thought it was an amazing opportunity. I really had no idea what I was going into. I had my own stigmas about the Netherlands. I had the misconception that in the red light district anything goes, which I found out is not true. And there’s no really substance use. Legally, the red light district is just a couple of different areas with red lights in it. And I just found it so fascinating how open they were about substance use as well.

Savannah Murray (06:27)
Thank you.

Wesley M McDonald (06:41)
I’ll talk a little bit about this more later, but especially in 12 step groups as well here in the States, drugs and alcohol are very separated, especially here in South Dakota, but in the Netherlands in 12 step groups, it was a lot more AA or NA, it didn’t matter. We’re all here for recovery. I really love that about the society there.

Whitney (07:04)
Very interesting. And I appreciate that you acknowledge that you had a misunderstanding of the Netherlands, because I think a lot of Americans do. And so can you tell us a little bit about their approach, particularly like the soft versus hard drug classification and separation?

Wesley M McDonald (07:24)
Yeah, Savannah, do you want me to go first on this one? Yeah. So I found that a little bit mind blowing because I know we have the different schedules here in America and that’s a whole nother topic that we can get into. But I think culturally here, soft and hard drugs is more of a cultural thing. It’s not necessarily a legal thing. We have the schedules, but other than that, most normal people don’t.

Savannah Murray (07:26)
Yeah, go for it.

Whitney (07:37)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (07:50)
schedules are but there there’s actually the soft and hard drugs legally inclined as such where soft drugs are decriminalized and even hard drugs you won’t get jail time necessarily for having on you a lot more times unless it’s you’re dealing or moving large amounts you won’t get jail time instead you’ll get treatment for hard drugs which has blown my mind especially here in the treatment field

Whitney (08:15)
Sorry.

Wesley M McDonald (08:19)
which we get a lot of people in the criminal justice system, but it’s sad that they have to be processed through the system, get jail time, get criminal records before they ever get to see me.

Savannah Murray (08:28)
That’s one thing too I’m glad you pointed out because as someone that has worked in the South Dakota men’s penitentiary it

honestly was super saddening because a lot of our inmate population is those that struggle with substance use disorders and a lot of their sentences involve drugs and or alcohol, whereas there they have that opportunity to receive treatment and they kind of, you know, help guide them along the way versus, okay, we’re just gonna, you know, throw them into a jail or prison. You serve your time and then, you know, you’re out. Their resources there are

there to kind of help and support the community rather, you know, they’re more about, you know, rehabilitation rather than punishment, which is something I wish, you know, America will hopefully kind of go in that right direction.

Whitney (09:20)
That’s interesting to hear you bring up your work in the penitentiary. I worked in a substance use program in a large county jail. And similarly, the individuals I worked with predominantly were there for things such as possession or for tech violations because they were on probation and they had something on them. And it does really

mess up the recovery trajectory and halts any progress that was being made. And that’s one of my soapboxes I could go on. And maybe we’ll look back to the culture or the incarceration population if we can squeeze it in. So I’m hearing really just a very different mindset about substance use and addiction. What was, tell us more about that.

Savannah Murray (09:54)
Yeah, me too.

100%.

I think they’re really big on harm reduction. Although, yes, they are big on treatment from what I’ve seen. You know, a lot of like homeless shelters or

areas like that they would provide you know clean needles they would provide certain things that you know somebody could come in use a room for x amount of time do their business and then they leave and it’s it’s really big on harm reduction just like their you know heroin and their methadone clinics they’re there to

help these individuals in a safe way versus, you know, cause we know one of the biggest things is detox and withdraw is super big even for, you know, someone that’s trying to quit drinking, it can be dangerous.

Whitney (10:59)
Right.

Wesley M McDonald (11:01)
For me, I think from just talking to a lot of people in the Netherlands as well and seeing their policies, they emphasize the disease model a lot more than I think America would. And I think in America, addiction is generally seen as a disease. And you can say, and people are like, yeah, but what does that mean? And I think that’s really shown in their policy, in their culture, in their tolerance towards people who struggle with substance abuse.

It’s a disease that doesn’t get better if you just throw him in jail or in prison. It’s a disease that requires treatment, care, and love, and they meet the individuals a lot more where they’re at, it seems.

Savannah Murray (11:43)
I 100 % agree. I’m glad, yeah. When that struck out to me is they meet them where they’re at. They don’t try to push them. They don’t try to, you know, kind of, because I know here, especially with jails and prisons and stuff like that, or like, you know, it’s a 30 day, 45 day, whereas there they give them the opportunity to kind of determine where they’re at, what they need, and, you know, work from there to see what program would benefit them best.

Whitney (12:12)
I don’t know if you learned at all about the healthcare coverage aspect. Did you? You’re nodding your heads. How does that play in about covering the cost of services?

Savannah Murray (12:25)
We were fortunate actually one day to go visit one of the bigger healthcare facilities that’s really in work with the clinics and it’s called the Hey Hey Day, which was the GGD. So we were fortunate enough there to kind of go and sit with some of those individuals and they had like a presentation for us and that was one thing that just blew my mind is that

Pretty much everything is covered. They require everyone to have insurance, but their insurance is so much more affordable and easily accessible. There’s honestly, it’s really hard to, in my guess, my opinion from what I’ve observed there is that it was hard to not have insurance just because of how affordable, I mean, obviously the unhoused population is a different area, but.

Whitney (12:58)
Really.

Savannah Murray (13:16)
they have these treatments and these clinics that are available to individuals, no questions asked type of situation. And I don’t know if you have anything to add, Wes.

Wesley M McDonald (13:27)
I don’t think, was the hey hey day at the end of the trip? I was gonna say, I had to leave early to get back to work, so I wasn’t actually to the hey hey day.

Savannah Murray (13:31)
Yep. Yep.

That’s right. I forgot that. Yes, you missed that day. That was a really cool aspect to see. And I think, you know, a lot of us, Mo and I and a few others were just like, just in awe of being able to see the clinic and the work that they do and the treatments that they provide and the fact that they’re just here to genuinely help these individuals that are struggling and want to provide the best care for them. And

Whitney (13:59)
Yeah.

Savannah Murray (14:03)
There’s no judgment. There’s no, you know, discouragement or anything like that. And additionally, they, you know, they’ll provide meals or they will, you know, have counseling services available, which is another thing that stuck out to me. it’s just, it was really heartwarming to kind of see, but also kind of in my own way, if I honest, like I kind of got a little sad and upset like towards, cause I’m just like, wow, like this is real. Like this is.

Whitney (14:21)
Yeah.

Savannah Murray (14:33)
this is what we should be doing. And they’re really big on harm reduction and whatnot, which is awesome.

Whitney (14:40)
Yeah. And for people who haven’t had a loved one go through the system or haven’t worked in the healthcare system, it is a huge barrier in the US. Our whole treatment model, it be with different levels of care that are provided by different providers. It really interrupts. So if you are inpatient somewhere and then move to an IOP or straight to outpatient, it could be with a different provider, which means you have to reestablish rapport.

at a time when you are getting a new baseline in life, then from the payer perspective, like pre -offs and limits on what can be spent. I spoke with someone on here, one of our peers who shared about, or another time shared with me, maybe it wasn’t on the interview, but shared with me that he was told by his county that he had reached the limit and they wouldn’t pay for him for the next 10 years.

And so the payment approach is one of the things that is the biggest barrier to getting people help.

Savannah Murray (15:47)
And that’s one thing that really sticks out to me is the fact that, you know, you can, we have all these different treatment facilities. We have an abundance of resources for individuals to go and receive treatment and, you know, participate in aftercare or, you know, sober living houses and that kind of stuff. But.

they’re so they can be so expensive and most of the time, you know, most insurances don’t cover it or they will only cover a portion because someone I know recently within the last couple of years went to recovery or went to treatment and they were recommended a 45 day stay and they were halfway through and their insurance cut them off and said, hey, we you met your max and they were

had to go. I mean, there’s state funding available and I know some of like Keystones and Canton, they’ve got tribal, I want to say funding available to those that qualify for it. So that’s one thing that I’ve always kind of bothered me, I guess, with the United States and whatnot is that we have all of these.

treatment facilities, we have all of these sober living houses and aftercare, but the cost of them can be so detrimental to some people that it deters them away from actually getting the help they need.

Whitney (17:14)
Yeah, it’s awful. And, you know, departure from treatment is one of the highest times of risk for fatal overdose. And that’s when people fall through the cracks. So it’s interesting to hear about that approach, that whole person approach. Tell me about society. How does I don’t

know if you got to talk to people who weren’t in the recovery space. But what do you see as the general population’s understanding? Did you see the same stigmas there that are prevalent here?

Wesley M McDonald (17:55)
I saw some of the same stigmas for sure. I was able to talk to a lot of people in the 12 step community, but as well as just, I’ve got talking to just a lot of random people as well. And, I had, I struck up a conversation with a DJ at a club and we ended up talking for about three hours. And, he was asking me all these questions about addiction. So I was, I told him, I was, you know, I was in recovery.

Whitney (17:58)
Okay.

Wesley M McDonald (18:23)
And he was asking me all these different questions about addiction. And I know DJ from the Netherlands is no example of the entire Netherlands culture, but from the people I talked with, I wouldn’t say a whole lot of them understood addiction. I said addiction was a disease and most people said, yeah, of course. But I don’t know if it is such a politicized issue there, like it is here.

Savannah Murray (18:52)
Mm -hmm. I would agree with that.

Wesley M McDonald (18:53)
Because here it’s politically charged, there’s a lot of emotions. It’s not that it doesn’t run deep with emotions there, but it seems like there it’s more of an emotional issue. I mean, it is something that impacts everybody, but also isn’t politicized as much. It isn’t used as a thing for politicians. It’s a human healthcare crisis.

Savannah Murray (19:16)
And I think a lot of that, you know, has to do with how much is decriminalized there and also, you know, they don’t necessarily like, I feel like their crime rate isn’t as high compared to ours and, you know, a lot of the crimes you do see is, you know, their substance use related or there’s some sort of substances involved. So I think.

there versus here, you know, they, we see it as, you know, they were drunk driving or they were high on meth and whatnot, whereas there it’s a little bit different. and so I don’t think it’s not as negatively seen like, like Wes was saying. Yeah.

Whitney (19:58)
Yeah, that is what an excellent point was. I hadn’t thought about the political politic. I can’t even say the politics that play a role because we know about like the war on drugs and how harmful that was. And talk about a political movement that was like a component of a campaign. And it is brought up. I mean, it was just brought up. We had the presidential debate a week ago.

And it was the opioid epidemic was mentioned there. And so it is taken to this different level. And then also you add to that the history of individuals who use substances, there’s something morally wrong with them or they’re bad people because that’s what was told. It was, we got to arrest everybody. We got to lock them up, which I don’t know. You mentioned the unhoused population a few times. We just had this ruling that

in America and house persons can be arrested and incarcerated for being on the streets. And it seems like over in the Netherlands, it’s just not the same from the legal system and governance.

Savannah Murray (21:13)
no, not at all. I mean, one of our tours, we kind of had like a red light district tour with a gentleman who, you know, was really big into the drug scene. And now he’s, you know, helping with a lot of the shelters and that kind of stuff. And we were able to visit one of the shelters just briefly inside the front lobby, but it showed a map and there was, I want to say it was at seven or eight different, shelters like that similar.

within Amsterdam within like the red light district. Yes. And that was something that blew me away because here, you know, people are turned away. Well, I guess I should say here as in Sioux Falls because, you know, people will be turned away and there’s lines out the door and there it’s so much more different. So that was one thing. And another thing, like I know you had mentioned, like the opioid, we’ve kind of briefly talked about that and

Whitney (21:45)
One city. Wow.

Yes.

Savannah Murray (22:13)
with kind of touching back on their healthcare there, one of the things that we had discussed in one of our lectures is that they are very reluctant or they don’t typically prescribe things unless absolutely necessary. One of the girls that we spoke with, she said, even just for strep, you really have to kind of advocate for yourself just to even get an antibiotic because they really don’t like to prescribe those types of…

medications or things like that. Whereas like here, you know, you hear about big pharma. Yep. Yep. And even, you know, one of the kind of the first couple of like first days where we were talking and whatnot, just kind of getting a general feel for, you know, what is all kind of decriminalize, which that was another big thing. I think a lot of us didn’t realize is things are decriminalized there. Whereas we thought a lot of things were legal, but they’re not. But

Whitney (22:45)
greater script. Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (23:10)
Okay.

Savannah Murray (23:11)
they’re not as strictly enforced or, you know, because there’s other things that they’re… Sorry, Wes, go ahead if you want. I don’t want to like be talking the entire time. Yeah. So, and I could be kind of wrong. I want to make sure I’m kind of explaining this right. So like the legalization is like, yes, you can go and do whatever. Whereas like the decriminalization is like, you can get in trouble for it, but it’s not…

Whitney (23:14)
Can you explain that difference?

Wesley M McDonald (23:19)
No, no, no, she asked you the question. I’m not good at definitions.

Savannah Murray (23:40)
like lock you up and throw away in the jail if I’m correct and you know I’m probably saying this wrong but it’s not trying to figure out how the words to describe it because we had also had this conversation.

Whitney (23:52)
So the legalization is like alcohol is legal. Yes, there are parameters. You can’t drive a car with this much, and you have to be a certain age, but it’s legal. You can have whatever amount you want in your home. You can transport it in your car, all those things. Then I don’t know where we…

Savannah Murray (23:57)
Yes.

Yep.

The decriminalize, I think it’s more of like you get like a ticket kind of, you know, it’s like a low class misdemeanor. Whereas, you know, if you’re caught here with something, then you’re getting arrested and you’re going to jail or that kind of thing. Whereas there, it’s, you know, kind of they just make sure you’re doing in the right areas.

Whitney (24:17)
Yeah.

I think that, and thank you for bringing that up and clarifying because I know Wes, you said you thought it was one way before you went over there. And I think that’s almost the narrative that we’ve been given in America is that in other countries, it’s just running wild. People are doing drugs in the street and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that’s just not true. What, so.

Savannah Murray (24:54)
No.

Whitney (24:58)
You mentioned the safe injection sites. Then was it something that let’s just like address that that that belief that it’s just you’re going to go to the red light district and it’s just going to be like people like maybe nodding out or what have you. What did you actually see?

Savannah Murray (25:18)
Honestly, I was very surprised at the number of individuals, you know, we didn’t see a lot of like, yes, we saw some unhoused populations. And yes, we saw some individuals that were, you know, you could tell we’re clearly using, but it wasn’t like crazy, you know, out all around, like, because a lot of these individuals were going to these houses or these, you know, shelters and using there because they’re there, they’re provided with

clean needles, they’re provided with lighters, they’re provided with, you know, papers that you can do or whatever you need to do and that kind of stuff and that was just kind of eye -opening shocking to me.

Wesley M McDonald (25:59)
For me, spending a lot of time in Seattle, which gets a lot of news coverage, it was incredibly how different, because I kind of walked in with the idea that this is going to start looking like Seattle. And it was nothing of the sorts. There was a few unhoused people, but I think I could count those on one hand. They had services available to them that weren’t overflowing. I know Seattle is overflowing right now.

All of the different services are wait lines, months, as well as, I mean, even I live in currently Yankton, South Dakota, and it’s a pretty small town, but our shelter has been having to turn people away recently. And it’s, it’s summer and usually it’s not turning away people in summer because there’s other nice places to go. But it has just gotten so, I was going to say ridiculous, I don’t know if that’s the right word, disheartening almost here in America.

Whitney (26:44)
Right.

Savannah Murray (26:58)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (27:00)
But being there, I was absolutely astonished by how clean it was. The water in the canals weren’t made clean. But other than that, it was extremely clean. They spent a lot of money on, I don’t know, presentation there, as well as all the different services that all of the unhoused seemed to need.

Whitney (27:06)
Hehehehe

Yeah.

Savannah Murray (27:22)
One thing that was really kind of stuck out to me is they had a grocery store there that was very poppy. You know, there’s one probably every other corner. And something that we noticed is that individuals and it doesn’t, you know, it could be whoever if you wanted to pick up bottles, glass, plastic, whatever, a lot of people will collect them and you can go and put them in a machine in these grocery stores and it’ll print off a ticket and you can get money for them. And so that’s like kind of a

I’m going to go to bed.

cool way I noticed that a lot of you know individuals within the unhoused community that we see you know they would go and collect bottles and there’s even a couple times where we saw them putting the bottles in and getting a ticket and then they can then either get groceries and buy those groceries with that ticket or you know whatever they need and it’s not kind of like there’s really no limitations and it just that was awesome yeah yeah

Whitney (28:14)
which changes everything. Like, ugh. And just the access is amazing, it sounds like, but also because there isn’t this fear of punishment, I imagine people are a lot more willing and engaged in these services rather than fearful. And…

Savannah Murray (28:34)
Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Whitney (28:39)
I want to go back, Wes, to the 12 steps because, and you started to allude to this about like the separation AA NA. Tell me about any differences, similarities between what you saw in the 12 step community in the US versus overseas.

Wesley M McDonald (28:56)
So I was surprised how bustling the 12 -step community was in the Netherlands. Because one of my stigmas against Europe is here in America we’re very faith -centered, God -centered. And my stigma was going over to Europe, there’s a lot more atheists, you know, and the 12 -steps is a spiritual program, not a religious program, but it’s very hard to differentiate the two, especially in our early recovery for a lot of people.

And so it doesn’t, I didn’t think it would stick as much as it did. When I came here, I was absolutely blown away in the Netherlands. Our people were showing up an hour before the meeting. Everyone was going out to coffee after the meetings. There was a lot of really good fellowship, not even just in the meetings, but outside the meetings as well. I got to really get to know some of the people there.

And I was talking to some of the members afterwards and they said, we have a lot slower way of life, despite how fast Amsterdam seems. culturally it’s a lot slower so that, you know, they get there early, they take their time. You get to meet them, have conversations. which the fellowship I’m currently a part of here in Yankton, South Dakota is a lot quicker. people get there five minutes before the meeting. People leave five minutes after, kind of got to catch them. They got.

Whitney (29:57)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (30:19)
things to do. It’s a lot harder to have those deep, meaningful human connections in a meeting. I mean, of course, I go out for coffee with the guys sometimes. I do my best to spend time with them, but there it’s almost forced upon you, which I, you know, it was great for me because I got to really meet some of the members there.

Whitney (30:24)
Yeah.

Savannah Murray (30:34)
Thank you.

I think that was the biggest thing that touched me is like that day that we had walked with you to one of the meeting places and one of the guys came up to you and granted, you know, we had been there for maybe what a week at this point. And so you had been to, you know, a couple meetings and he’s like, Hey, Wes, we’re over here. We’re going to go to the coffee shop. Like, I don’t know why, but like, I almost like wanted to start tearing up because like, I was like, wow. I was like the fact that

you are from a different country, you are here for a school trip, you’re not going to be here, you know, for a super long period of time and they were just so welcoming to you and inclusive like just, yep, hey, we’re over here, we’re going to go and you’re like, okay, well, I’m going to take off now guys, like I’ll catch up with you afterwards and I was like, my God, I was like that, that just, it really like touched me. I kind of like even thinking about it right now, I’m getting goosebumps because I’m like, you don’t, you don’t see that often here.

Whitney (31:35)
We really covered the policies, legalities of it, and the 12 steps is a good transition because 12 steps are relevant when you’re actively using and trying to get to a place of recovery. And it’s a part of a lot of people’s long -term recovery process.

What did you see for the recovery space? What about it? Are people more open about being in recovery? Are there more services to support beyond treatment? I’m curious on that. If you even got to get into that, I know it was a lot to take to do in a short amount of time, so you may not have even gotten to touch it.

Savannah Murray (32:14)
Yeah, and I was like, I’m not really sure if we kind of got into the recovery aspect, but maybe you did, Wes, or maybe I’m just kind of drawing a blank on it.

Wesley M McDonald (32:25)
Yeah, I got into a little bit. So one of the first things I found out there was pretty much everyone goes to Gellinec for treatment. There’s one big treatment center inpatient at least for treatment, which I thought was wild. Especially my first thought was, well, what happens when you see people you know? But then after that, it sounds like there is…

still some groups, but it’s less intense. It seems a little bit more individualized from the people I talked to. Not many of them had been to counseling. It seems like a lot of them is an inpatient and then 12 steps, which I was surprised to learn that their inpatient uses the 12 steps. With my stigmas a year, I didn’t think that they would be using the 12 steps, but they do use the 12 steps. And so it seems like 12 step groups are a lot more, I want to say pushed.

Whitney (33:08)
Right?

Wesley M McDonald (33:21)
but encouraged. I know I wasn’t able to make it. I was really sad, but they have a couple of meetings up at the Jell -O -Net clinic where community members come up there with people who are in, inpatient, and then they have a big meeting up there. And so it seems like they really try to get you connected to community supports before you leave while you’re in treatment. And if you’re in a lower level of care, say level one or level…

Whitney (33:42)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (33:48)
It seems like they do a good job of encouraging it and once you get there, the community will pull you in because of how kind and sweet they are.

Savannah Murray (33:59)
Which I think is so nice because, you know, a lot of these individuals, you know, when they’re getting set up in the community, they have kind of going back to, you know, the jail and prison, they have that felony, you know, charge or whatever, and it kind of makes them harder, you know, to get a job or to find stable housing that’s, you know, in a good area, whereas they’re, you know, they don’t have that kind of hanging over their shoulder where they’re trying to, you know,

find their way around, whereas they’re given the opportunity to go through treatment, experience that, and be in recovery without that label.

Whitney (34:38)
It, man, I often share my opinion that our legal system and a lot of our healthcare system in regards to substance use disorders sets people up for failure. And it sounds like over there, they’re truly doing everything they can to give the person the best opportunity from the community level, the legal level, treatment, health, like it just is so different.

Savannah Murray (35:03)
100%.

Whitney (35:08)
And so I’m debating which question to go with next. You’ve both shared that you’re in recovery and I’m curious, knowing what you know now, if your area had an approach like what you saw over there, how would your experience have differed? If it would have.

Savannah Murray (35:35)
Wes, do you want to go first? You want me to?

Wesley M McDonald (35:36)
Yeah. So growing up in Washington, it was a lot different than South Dakota. And I often joke that if I got sober in South Dakota, I probably wouldn’t have it. I’d probably be in prison, which is a sad truth because I’ve had countless run -ins with the cops. I’ve only been asked my name a few times. And without war storing, I probably should have gone to prison a couple of times, but the cops let me go with a slap on the wrist. And so…

Savannah Murray (35:43)
Yeah.

Whitney (35:49)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (36:07)
how it would change my recovery. I’m not sure if it would just because I’m very, very grateful. My father worked at Microsoft so we had good insurance. I was able to get into a treatment that would kept me for 45 days. I was able to have aftercare through insurance. So for my personal story, I’m extremely blessed and privileged to have made it through the system because I had good insurance. And when it came to law enforcement,

It didn’t impact me because I lived in a state which was more open about it and maybe there’s a couple of times I probably should have gotten in trouble for it. But I was able to get through the cracks that way. But I can tell you from my clients, who I see over and over and over again, I mean, their lives just get ruined. And I am so grateful that I never got a criminal record because in America I probably should have.

But I didn’t, and so I’m able to have the job I have. I’m able to apply for student loans. I’m able to get the housing I get because I got lucky. And I was raised in a family that had good insurance. And to be able to see that for some of my clients who don’t have that and who don’t get lucky and who are targeted by police and the police know them by name and know what they drive. And so they’re just getting case after case after case.

It’s disheartening. They can’t pay for services. And I know here in South Dakota, if you don’t have insurance or state funding, one IOP session is $156. And then 18 sessions of that, you’re going to be in debt. And that’s just IOP. That’s not even impatient.

Whitney (37:50)
Yeah. Right. Thank you for sharing that.

Savannah Murray (37:53)
Yeah, I’ll go ahead. Sorry, Wes, finish up.

Wesley M McDonald (37:56)
I was just gonna say I’m just forever extremely grateful and lucky that I was put in the situation that I did because I wouldn’t have made it through the system. I’m lucky I got sober at the age of 17 because at the end of that my parents made those made -up. Your off insurance are gone so if I wouldn’t have gotten sober at that point I don’t know what would have happened to me. I know I probably wouldn’t have been in treatment and I probably would not. I definitely would not have the life I have today.

Savannah Murray (38:20)
So my recovery is a little bit kind of different in a way of a sense of I never went to a treatment program, I never participated. Mine was more of, you know, I’ve got family history with alcoholism. I, you know, was going through some tough, tough times in my life and had some things happen and I noticed that it was really affecting my overall mental health.

I was in a really dark place and so I think I realized, you know, hey, I don’t want to use this as a coping mechanism because I’ve seen what it’s done to family members and how it’s changed their life forever. So, you know, I kind of decided one day I was like, I am just going to, you know, be done, break up. Like this is, and it was more of a day by day thing for me, but to kind of go into the mental health aspect of it, because that was what

I guess my, a lot of my cost was is, you know, I got into therapy and with my insurance that I have through my job, I still pay $70 a session because it’s considered a specialized doctor or specialized care. And to me, it just was crazy because it’s like here, I’m trying to better myself and I’m

Whitney (39:27)
Great.

Savannah Murray (39:39)
you know, wanting to be able to do this weekly. But you think about it, you know, you go to four sessions a month, that’s, you know, 200 what? Yeah, it’s like $300 a month. And it’s crazy. And I actually, one of the days, told one of the girls during one of our lectures that was kind of, you know, talking about the healthcare and mental health and counseling and that kind of stuff. And I had said that to her and like her face was just like, you pay for your therapy. And I said, I pay $70 a week for my therapy.

Whitney (39:45)
lot of money.

Savannah Murray (40:10)
It’s just wild because I feel like if I would have had the care there I probably wouldn’t be as you know stressed out because at the end of the day I’m a college student I’m trying to pay for college I’m still working a job full -time and I’m trying to make sure my bills are paid and all while you know trying to stay healthy mentally and physically and that was one thing that kind of stuck out to me there is the fact that you know someone can say hey you know I want to get some counseling and

they get referred off, whereas here everything has a price and every level like Wes was saying is different. And it’s hard because these individuals can be discouraged from even seeking out treatment options because one, you know, their pride, they don’t want to ask for help to, you know, they don’t have the resources like insurance or, you know, they know that maybe state funding, they won’t qualify for it or that kind of thing. And so

Whitney (40:40)
to every…

Savannah Murray (41:06)
I think that’s one thing that would maybe be different and change a lot of lives in America is if we didn’t have that kind of aspect holding us down.

Whitney (41:15)
Well, that leads perfectly into my next question. And we’re coming to the end. So just bear with me a little bit longer. Although I think I could talk to both of you all day. If you had a magic wand and you could take one component of what you saw over there and apply it to all of America, what would it be?

Savannah Murray (41:26)
Yeah.

Wesley M McDonald (41:41)
Okay, I got mine. The absence of the ramifications on the war on drugs. I think that the war on drugs here has forever left a stain on America, and the healthcare system, the addiction system, the stigmas, and even in my little 12 -step community in Yankton, South Dakota, there’s violent arguments about the differences between drugs and alcohol, which separates people and disconnects people from recovery services.

Whitney (42:11)
Yep. Okay. All right.

Savannah Murray (42:12)
I agree with that 100%. I would say my thing, if I could choose, is their accessibility to healthcare and to treatment. You know, obviously I wish I could wave a magic wand and, you know, treatment services could be free. And I know obviously the people that are providing these services, such as myself, one day, obviously we have to get paid, we have to make a living, but also I wish, yeah.

Whitney (42:37)
Absolutely. And you deserve a good living. Yeah.

Savannah Murray (42:42)
Yeah, that’s one thing I always, you know, when I tell people I’m going and they’re like, you’re not going in for the money. And I was like, well, no, but also, yeah. And yeah, and it’s just like, why is that so negative? Why does it have to be so negative? I mean, I get it, but I wish that we had a way to, you know, whether it’s something on the state level or the federal level or whatever is to have some sort of way to make

Whitney (42:49)
You’re going to live in a cardboard box. That’s what I was always told as a counselor, counseling student.

Savannah Murray (43:11)
these programs more accessible nationwide versus people struggling in the dark or going in debt just to receive treatment.

Whitney (43:20)
Yeah. And correct me if I’m wrong. I want to emphasize what I understand to be what you mean by accessibility, because that’s like a buzzword these days. You don’t mean have a treatment program on every corner, more locations. What I understand is you’re saying eliminate the obstacles such as finances, resources, transportation, child care, all those things that are dismissed. And when someone’s like, well, why don’t they just go into treatment?

Savannah Murray (43:28)
Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Yes.

Whitney (43:50)
Because it’s not… it’s not… Yeah.

Savannah Murray (43:51)
There’s so many more components that are involved than just if I could wave a magic wand and someone that wanted treatment could walk into the doors and receive, you know, 45 days or even 60 days and then have a place to go to afterwards, whether it’s, you know, a 30 day aftercare program or outpatient. I would love that, but that’s sadly not.

our lives in America. And yes, and that’s what I mean by accessibility is, you know, for people that truly genuinely want to seek help or need that extra little push, you know, without worrying, how am I going to pay for it? Or my insurance only covers this many days or all my insurance, you know, I have to pay this out of pocket first because, you know, some individuals, they have to pay, you know, like three, four or five grand and not a lot of people, especially in

these situations where they’re struggling with addiction have the funding or the resources to pay that upfront, you know? So yeah, that’d be nice.

Whitney (44:54)
Yeah, that would be lovely. So as we wrap up, there are so many wonderful things that you both have shared. For each of you separately, I’d like to ask if people can only take one thing away from our discussion today, what would you like it to be?

Savannah Murray (45:13)
I think for me the biggest thing was I know I feel like now after talking about Amsterdam versus America and then people listening and now they’re like, my gosh, treatment’s so hard to get in America or it’s so hard to get sober, but there are resources available. There are people that you can turn to and regardless of your situation, don’t be afraid to take those first initial steps. It can be scary, but

the end of the day like your overall mental and physical well -being is more important and I mean I’d rather you know see a client going through treatment and trying to figure out ways to get the debt versus them struggling on the side of the road or something.

Wesley M McDonald (46:05)
I think that’s wonderfully put, Savannah. For me, it would be that recovery is possible no matter what. I know it seems that there’s a lot of systems put in place in America that seem to go against addiction recovery and make recovery harder, be it the legal system, healthcare system, the addiction care system, all these things that seem to make recovery more difficult. While the systems in place in America may seem to be against you.

There’s always, always individuals either within that system or apart from that system, maybe in 12 step groups, maybe in different community, in your community that care. And there’s people that care if you are dying out there, if you are struggling. And from my journey, it’s been less about the institutions and more about the individuals. Always has been.

Savannah Murray (46:44)
percent.

Yeah, there’s always someone rooting for you, even if it’s a stranger that you meet in a meeting. I mean, look at US, you built a relationship with guys that you have never met before in a country you’ve never been to before. And within two days, they’re, you know, it’s like you guys have known each other for years. So I think that’s one thing that’s really cool about the addiction community is they’re there to support each other regardless.

Whitney (47:23)
I, as someone who, my background’s personal lived experiences with mental health, but I care deeply about individuals with substance use disorders. My perspective as an outsider has been that, man, you will never find a more caring and loyal group as those who have shared lived experience with addiction. And people will step up and they may not have a lot to offer like,

financially or things like that, but whatever they do have, they’re going and whatever they can do, they’re going to offer. And it’s just so amazing to it’s yeah. And you two are both just such wonderful models of that. The fact that recovery is possible and the heart.

within each person who has struggled or is struggling. And so hopefully, you know, in addition to educating all of us on your experience, people also just see that, look, there’s just so many great people out there who you may have dismissed in the past, and now they’re changing the world. So thank you both. Yeah.

Savannah Murray (48:32)
I appreciate that. Thank you.

Wesley M McDonald (48:33)
Thank you for having us on Whitney.

Whitney (48:35)
Yeah, it just what a pleasure. I’m so glad that I got to talk to you. I learned things. I definitely had some of those same misconceptions. So I think this is going to be really helpful for people to understand. And just thank you so much. And I’m excited to stay updated on what you all do in the future.

Savannah Murray (48:53)
Yeah, looking forward to it.

Wesley M McDonald (48:54)
Thank you.

Whitney (48:55)
Yeah, well, all of you listening, if you enjoyed this, please, as I’m sure you did, like, share, comment. It really does help us get our message out there. Pass this along to someone who maybe doesn’t understand what it’s like, what it could be like if we were to adapt some policies or approaches from other places. Keep on coming together and supporting one another as we keep fighting stigma. Thank you for listening.