Down the Rabbit Hole: Finding Hope and Healing with Courtney Hay

00:00 Courtney’s Journey: Overcoming Challenges
07:14 Transformative Impact of Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT)
28:25 Challenging Stigma: Embracing Your True Self
34:35 No One Is Alone: Support for Every Experience
36:20 Reduce the Stigma Outro

Whitney (00:00)

Hello and welcome to Reduce the Stigma, the podcast that raises the voices of individuals with lived experience, as well as the organizations and people who support them. Reduce the Stigma is brought to you by Straight Up Care, the comprehensive telehealth platform for peer support services. Straight Up Care, where recovery is powered by lived experience. In this episode, we’re going down the rabbit hole in a really great way and touching on topics like identity, emotion regulation, and the drive to help others. Today’s episode is sponsored by Syndicate 12, an online recovery community and social media platform. Visit syndicate12 .com. Together, recovery is possible. Be sure to like, subscribe, and share. It really does help us grow and reach more with these incredible stories. Let’s get started.

Whitney (01:58)

Hello and welcome to Reduce the Stigma, the podcast that raises the voices of individuals with lived experience, as well as the organizations and people who are supporting them. Reduce the Stigma is brought to all of you by Straight Up Care, the comprehensive telehealth platform for peer support services. Straight Up Care, where recovery is powered by lived experience. Today’s episode is sponsored by Syndicate 12, an online recovery community and social media platform, visit syndicate12 .com. Together, recovery is possible. With me today, we have Courtney Hayes, a peer support specialist in California. Welcome Courtney.

Courtney Hays (02:39)

Hi Whitney, thank you for having me today.

Whitney (02:42)

Thank you for taking the time to join me. We recently connected because you have joined the Straight Up Care family and I’ve already gotten to get a sense of how amazing of a spirit you have. So today we get to share that with everyone.

Courtney Hays (02:58)

I’m super excited. I’m excited to become part of the family and I’m excited to share my story and what I believe peer support is all about.

Whitney (03:11)

Wonderful. Well, I’d like to start with your story if you can just tell us a little bit about who Courtney is.

Courtney Hays (03:19)

Yeah, so the one thing I have always known I wanted to do with my life is to help people. As a peer specialist, I’m also a person who has used mental health services. I’ve always wanted to make a difference in people’s lives. So I was actually adopted at birth into a loving family, but I always felt a sense of loss and confusion about my identity. Struggling with intense emotions. I often felt abandoned, unworthy, misunderstood. And this internal struggle was a constant trend in my life, influencing my relationships and my self -perception. Growing up, I was relentlessly bullied from elementary school through junior high. Every day, I felt harsh words and exclusion, feeling like a constant outsider. My classmates’ cruelty left me feeling isolated and afraid to speak up. Whenever I gathered the courage to tell my parents about my experiences, they dismissed my feelings, basically telling me I was being overly emotional or too sensitive and that I needed to toughen up and just get over it. This invalidation deepened my sense of loneliness, making it seem like there was nowhere I could turn to for support. Those feelings intensified during my teenage years leading to turbulent relationships. It took years of compassionate friends and counselors for me to start healing and recognizing that my feelings were valid and that I deserved kindness and understanding. When I turned 21, I started experiencing alopecia and autoimmune disease where you lose your hair. My hair would fall out in patches and then it would grow back out only to fall back out again. This on again, off again battle with alopecia affected my self esteem deeply. Society places such a high value on physical appearance and losing my hair made me feel vulnerable and exposed. Over time I learned to embrace my appearance whether I had a full hair or not. It became a journey of self -acceptance and resilience. In my late 20s, I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, BPD. The diagnosis was both a relief and a challenge. It explained the intense emotions, fear of abandonment, and difficulties in maintaining stable relationships. That had plagued me for years. BPD made my life feel like a roller coaster. My emotions were powerful and unpredictable, making it feel difficult to hold down a job and it often felt a sense of emptiness and loneliness. The pain of my past and the fear of abandonment led me to push people away even though I desperately craved attention. As if these challenges weren’t enough, my husband and I decided to start a family after several months of trying with no success, we saw medical advice and were devastated as we faced difficulties conceiving. The news was crushing. The dream of having biological children was suddenly out of reach. And it felt like another piece of my identity was being stripped away. My journey through infertility was one of the darkest periods of my life. It tested my resilience and my mental health. Also brought a profound sense of grief and loss, triggered emotional and mental health challenges. I had to navigate through feelings of inadequacy and uncertainty. However, through this pain, I found new ways to envision my future and the potential to provide love and caring in different capacities. I decided to research a dialectical behavioral therapy program and I found one and I went through a three month long program. And it was the most transformative, amazing, influential Disneyland type experience ever is the best way I can explain it. It was just… For the first time in my life, I felt heard and understood and validated. And there was a reason for everything. Everything I did had a reason for it. Like it all made sense. It was like my aha moment of life. It was like I was 38 years old and I’m just like, like…

Whitney (07:34)

Yes.

Courtney Hays (07:59)

It was amazing and I wanted to be able to share that with people. So here I am today.

Whitney (08:05)

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing that, for being so open with us. That is quite a story and I, my heart is going to the young Courtney that had to deal with bullying and just what you’ve gone through and the continuous weight on your identity. That’s what kept kind of sticking out to me was, It sounds like every time you started to figure yourself out or figure life out, something new came in to kind of challenge it and question it and put you through the wringer of who am I, what’s going on? That’s quite a tale. So thank you for sharing that.

Courtney Hays (08:55)

Yeah, it definitely felt like, as you can see, I love Alice in Wonderland. And so I’m constantly saying down my rabbit hole or trying to climb out of my rabbit hole. I resonate with it. I feel like we are currently living in a wonderland of emotions. That’s what this world is. And I just, it is. And I constantly I felt like I was at that last stretch of like final hope and it was just like the rabbit just pulled me back, you know, every time. And, you know, I

Whitney (09:32)

Yeah.

Courtney Hays (09:38)

I’m not going to lie, I had some really rough times. I was hospitalized. That was another really scary moment that I’ll never forget. It was an experience that I never wish on anybody, even my worst enemy. And I just, I want to be able to let others know that they’re heard and they’re alone, you know? And it doesn’t need to get there.

Whitney (09:57)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s such a powerful message. Certainly we’ve heard others share it. It doesn’t take away the power of hearing it though, because I think it’s one of those things where we can be told time and time again, we aren’t alone. In the darkest times though, it’s hard to believe it. And so the more messages we can get out there that you’re not alone, the better the chance that someone’s going to believe it and feel it. So hopefully everyone heard you when you said that. And, you know, I’ve never heard someone refer to treatment, any sort of treatment, as like Disneyland and the excitement and the joy that is on your face as you discuss that. Can we go back there? Because people can be reluctant to go to treatment and can be afraid of what it will entail and certainly every treatment experience is different. Can you share with us though what made it such a positive experience?

Courtney Hays (11:29)

It’s more or less like I try like I I like memes because I feel like I can relate to memes, you know, and it’s my way to spread humor about difficult subjects, you know, and so by doing it like this, I feel like, so I’m currently providing a free support group called Emotional Wonderland. And it is my second week hosting it this week, just as a peer, talking to other peers. And so I, the term Emotional Wonderland is because we are in a world of wonderland and everybody in Wonderland, that movie or that book or whichever version you understand or know of has so many different emotions and each emotion gets triggered by certain reaction. And that was what my first group was about. And so I’ve always resonated with Alice growing up because it was different than all the other Disney stories. It wasn’t about love. It was about her finding herself and her figuring it out herself. She did it all by herself and then she ended up wanting to go back to where she, you know, so I just, and I can relate to that. And especially with, you know, having borderline personality disorder, I have intense emotions. So I can resonate with every single character, you know, on some kind of level. Then all of those characters were in my life, you know, in one place or another. So.

Whitney (13:11)

Yeah.

Courtney Hays (13:16)

It helps me kind of make light of the situation, helps me resonate with something else that is more lighthearted, and it’s just easier for me to say I’m having a Queen of Hearts day where I just want to rip everyone’s head off, you know? Rather than being like Hannah –

Whitney (13:41)

I love it! Yeah!

Courtney Hays (13:44)

Or I am feeling really goofy and mad hotter like today, you know? I just, it helps kind of break the stigma, I guess you could say, of the depression part of mental challenges.

Whitney (13:57)

Yes.

Courtney Hays (14:03)

and emotions.

Whitney (14:03)

Yeah. I love the language you’ve developed to process and make sense of the world around us, right? Like, and to work on that, communicate it. And that is such a valuable coping skill, is to figure out what works for you to understand, communicate about it to yourself and to others. And I…I think it’s amazing and so creative and I hope other people really heard that part because everyone thinks differently. You know, you have like the tactile learners. I’m a very visual learner so I like imagery. That can be an extremely resourceful capability of ours to be able to say, this is how I’m going to process it. And I have to admit, I haven’t watched Alice in Wonderland in probably 30 years. I think I need to rewatch it because I never really processed that it was about someone seeking their identity. And now I’m never going to be able to forget you when I watch it.

Courtney Hays (15:05)

She yeah. Great! I like that. I’m okay with that. Actually a lot of people that know me know me because of Alice in Wonderland. They know me because of that and then Docsense because I’ve had a Docsense since I was 18. So, but so yeah. But Alice in Wonderland, basically everybody that knows me knows I like Alice in Wonderland. They…

Whitney (15:13)

you

Courtney Hays (15:32)

Have always gotten me a bunch of like all the randoms around my house or a bunch of Alice in Wonderland, Alice in Wonderland clock everything so Yeah, it has become a big theme in our house and you know it it helps me when I am Depressed it’s you know everybody has a go -to movie or go -to show it is definitely my go -to show because it’s like she points me back in the right direction almost you know because

Whitney (15:44)

Yeah. That’s great.

Courtney Hays (16:01)

She goes through so many obstacles and has to really just figure stuff out on her own and she has nobody else to point to and she tries to get help from everybody else and she even tells everybody else like I don’t even know who I am because I was a different person yesterday. I don’t know. You know, so she just goes through all these transformations and big small, you know, mad angry fun and curious

Whitney (16:03)

Yeah.

Courtney Hays (16:30)

And I just love her curious mind. She just keeps going. And I think that that’s why I was able to keep going is because I was curious. I wanted to know how much more of this I was going to need to take. And I have a planner and I have a doer. So it was like, okay, if it’s going to continue, I need to plan. Okay. Cause I need to, I need to get through this better than I’ve been getting through it. Cause it has

Whitney (16:41)

Hmm.

Courtney Hays (16:58)

Not fun and life should be fun. Life should not be so dreadful and frustrating all the time and you know finding a passion has helped me and realizing I’m not alone has helped me and having support groups and friends that understand me and that can I can relate to and that can relate to me and it doesn’t need to be the exact same story because everybody, let’s face it, doesn’t have the exact same story. Nobody knows exactly what you’re going through, you know, but

somebody can relate on their own level, you know, and knowing that you’re not alone is such a big part. And I believe everybody’s coming to, you know, as far as their their first step for me personally, I felt like that was my first step was that aha moment of There’s hope you know like it’s out there It’s real so know that like Yeah, it’s just it it feels good to be able to show other people that

Whitney (17:57)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, no wonder you had such joy on your face when you were talking about this recent, you know, experience of yours, because it truly sounds life changing. And now here you are beginning your experience as a peer, a peer specialist supporting others. You already have a group going. What led you, because I as I understand you, you’ve done other things in the past to help people. What led you to take this step to become a peer specialist?

Courtney Hays (18:57)

So I’ve always been in industries that have helped people. And I really got into recruiting. And when I started getting into recruiting, I realized I was helping people at a really crucial point in their life, right? Where they really needed a job. So I was able to provide that and to be able to be a part of that part and help them in time of struggle with something that I’m really good at. Be able to give back in that kind of way.

Whitney (19:14)

Yeah.

Courtney Hays (19:27)

Touched me and then with my alopecia i created a support group and that support group sparked another interest in me of being able to give back and that was about 10 years ago almost. And I went through a DBT program that just provided so much hope and so much validation and let me know that it was okay to be full of emotions and it was okay to cry every day on my way to work and it was okay to scream in a pillow every now and then and it was okay to you know let out these feelings but in a correct manner in the right way to the right person and I was taught coping skills and triggers, what my triggers were. And I learned so much about myself. I really feel like DBT should be taught in elementary school. And then again, as a refresher in college, like 100%. I feel like all of the real problems would go away. All of the real problems go away. Everybody just learned DBT skills. Period.

Whitney (20:36)

Yes. Yes, I agree. I agree so much.

Courtney Hays (20:49)

 cut it out if you need to, but honestly right now I swear like that’s well how I feel on this it sparked something in me and it’s funny because the father that I have felt so misunderstood from for 38 years was who pointed me to DBT because he’s actually seeking therapy for the first time of his 72 years himself.

Whitney (20:56)

Yeah. Wow. Good for him.

Courtney Hays (21:18)

So, yeah, so our relationship is changing and molding and baby steps, but I’m honestly, I, my biggest regret would be to not have had a relationship with him if he passes. And I’m so glad that I have been given this opportunity to be able to start over again with him because of all of the negativity I put in the world. I feel like it’s my little bit of

Whitney (21:24)

Yeah. Yeah. 

Courtney Hays (21:48)

Positivity I can put out in the atmosphere, you know?

Whitney (21:51)

Yeah, and not everyone is familiar with DBT. Would you, it’s for those of you who don’t know, it’s Dialectical Behavior Therapy. Do you mind just briefly, in your own words, what is DBT? I’m putting you on the spot I know.

Courtney Hays (22:07)

For me it was emotional emotion regulation skills Basically, it was learning my triggers learning how to Before how to? catch a panic attack or an anger episode or a BPD outburst Before it happens and being able to Take necessary steps to

Whitney (22:12)

Yes, yeah.

Courtney Hays (22:37)

Prevent the actual blow up to happen. Just trying to stay one step ahead of it, basically.

Whitney (22:46)

That’s a great explanation. And yes, it’s about, we know that emotions and behaviors are linked and it can be, you know, whenever we’re in an extremely heightened emotional state, it can be hard to make, you know, the best decisions for behaviors. And we can sometimes engage in behaviors that are very detrimental to us because we’re in that state. And so you’re right. It’s stopping it beforehand. It’s learning how to identify the emotions as they’re starting to grow, being able to implement those coping skills to stop it from getting to that place so that ultimately then those behaviors are not happening or good behaviors are happening in their place. And I agree. I think I’ve never gone through DBT therapy. I’ve been trained in it though. And I’ve had the same thought. We do not do well as a society modeling how to handle emotions, how to talk about emotions. And I agree. So I could go down a little rabbit hole with you on DBT. But for the sake of everyone listening, who’s like, I want to hear more about Courtney. And let’s go back to Courtney. So you have this desire, you’ve been doing different things to help people. You’ve found then peer support.

Courtney Hays (24:00)

So, bye.

Whitney (24:12)

How did you learn about it? What is peer support, as you would explain it?

Courtney Hays (24:18)

Providing support and your own lived experience and having empathy for others and just showing support and being a resource. That is one thing that I’m excited for as a past resume writer and admin coordinator and everything in the office. I have some phenomenal research skills, so I’m excited to be put to work and I’m excited to show some, you know, some support and just empathy because I feel like so many people are just brushed off from their emotions and I feel like were just told to push them down and then they come out and then we are known as the bad guy. I just want others to know that there is light at the end of the rabbit hole. There is someone holding out his hand at the top of the rabbit hole and it is me. I’m holding out my hand at the top of the rabbit hole, you know, just letting them know that I’m here, whatever it is that they need.

Whitney (25:26)

Yeah. Yeah. When you said that people are, I forget how you worded it, but essentially said people’s emotions are being dismissed, the term gaslighting came to mind and in many ways it’s wonderful because we have a term for it that people are now knowing. However, it’s also kind of becoming almost, I don’t wanna say a joke, but it’s starting to be used so colloquially that the impact is kind of losing recognition. It is extremely detrimental to a person when their emotions are denied and dismissed and they aren’t, you know, given the skills or modeled the skills for how to process those things. And as a peer, you know, certainly you’re not supposed to…conduct DBT or nor would you want to because that’s not why you become a peer. If you wanted to do that, you can become a counselor or a therapist. You can still though, you’re going to be able to model what you’ve learned and be able to say, hey, this thing worked for me. Have you ever thought about it? And maybe even more importantly, be able to know the value of sitting with someone as they feel their emotions. Yeah.

Courtney Hays (26:42)

It is, it’s a moment to be able to be like that connected to someone to feel that comfortable with someone and just let go and feel fully comfortable and vulnerable and You know, and I try to let them know that they’re not you know It’s okay. They’re not alone in feeling that way that we’ve all had

Courtney Hays (27:31)

At some point had our own way of a low point and felt that negativity and that crushed and that burnout and that frustration and that anger and that resentment. Whatever it is that you’re feeling, somebody out there, you’re not alone. You’re, you’re, you’re

Whitney (27:39)

Yeah. Yeah. You’re not.

Courtney Hays (27:58)

100 % heard, your feelings are validated. What helps me is figuring out what’s causing the emotion. And then I can help, I can start identifying my triggers. And then I can start helping myself with the skills that I need to prevent that from happening again. So it’s just like, you know, follow the rabbit, you know? It’s just, it all just, it was my aha moment, the DBT class. It’s just, I cannot express how transformative it was and how helpful and life -changing it was.

Whitney (28:46)

Yeah, I’m glad that you, I’m so happy for you that you had that experience. That’s wonderful. And, you know, we’re almost done with our discussion and I have a couple questions, but before I get to my final questions that I ask everyone, I just kind of want to revisit the aspects or experiences that you’re going to provide peer support for.It sounds like for mental health, depression, bipolar, not bipolar, I’m sorry, borderline personality disorder. Are you interested in providing support for any of those other lived experiences of yours?

Courtney Hays (29:29)

Yeah, so adoption, mental health challenges like borderline personality disorder or emotion regulation, anxiety, depression, infertility, alopecia, hair loss or identity, childhood trauma like bullying or I actually listened to your Grises episode on invisible diagnosis. I also have psoriatic arthritis myself so I also have lived experience with invisible diagnosis as well as well as this will diagnosis so a little bit of a little touch of Everything so I you know, I I Really just want to be open now, you know, I don’t want to be just specific whatever it is that

Whitney (30:04)

Yeah.

Courtney Hays (30:26)

Anybody needs to discuss or get off their chest or like to talk about or anything I’m open to. I have an open mind and an open heart and I’m full of empathy and love and I just care about you.

Whitney (30:50)

Thank you for sharing that peer support is rooted in mental health diagnoses, specific diagnoses, as well as substance use. And certainly very valid. I do not want to dismiss that. However, we’re missing out on being able to support people through life experiences that maybe don’t have a diagnosis attached to it. And peer support is valid for that too. I’m so glad you mentioned adoption. Alopecia, these are all life impacting events that can benefit from talking to someone who’s been through something similar, who may know, not that they’re gonna put their own experience on you, but may have an idea of what you are probably experiencing. And so I think that you’re getting out there, you’re helping us get out the message that peer support is for everyone, for every type of experience because we’re not meant to go it alone. And sometimes we don’t need the formal treatment or counseling. Sometimes we do need someone who’s not in our immediate circle. And that’s where Peer comes in. And there’s just so much opportunity there to receive amazing support. And that’s gonna lead us then to my next question for you,

which is about stigma. And we haven’t gotten to stigma really much today, but I want to ask about an experience that you have experienced of stigma. It can be a word, it can be something somebody did, but something that you’ve witnessed, experienced that you can share with us to help us all kind of break down stigma.

Courtney Hays (32:46)

I have a good one for you. So it is perfect for the what you’re asking for. So when I was first diagnosed with alopecia, the autoimmune disease where I lose my hair, I was in Walmart and I didn’t have my wig on. I didn’t have my beanie on. Super hot. It was like 107 degrees. It was in Walmart and this kid was like

Whitney (32:49)

I’m worried about it if it’s like, it’s like, is, bye, go ahead. Yeah.

Courtney Hays (33:16)

Two or three like bumped into me and the mother kind of pulled the child away from me like I was contagious. And it broke my heart. And then shortly after that someone came up to me and asked if I was in remission from chemo. And it was like, I’m healthy. I’m actually so healthy that my hair follicles attack themselves. So If I could say one thing about challenging stigma, I would say embrace your true self unapologetically, for it is in your unique journey and authentic expressions that we find our strength and inspire others.

Whitney (34:03)

That’s beautiful. And I mean, you’ve said so many great things that this may be really hard, but, because I think you’ve already said the message, but I’m going to ask you anyway, because it doesn’t hurt to hear it more than once. For the person out there listening or watching who’s in that place where they’re having a hard time, what would you like to say to them and please speak to them?

Courtney Hays (34:33)

I hear you, I care, air hug, if you’re not an air hug person, whatever it is you need, I’m here for you. You’re not alone in feeling what you’re feeling, your feelings are validated and if you need support, it’s out there in whatever form it may be. Google will be your best friend.

Whitney (35:02)

Yes, wonderful. And if you are in a place of need and you’re like, I want to talk to Courtney, you can connect with her through straight up care. We will have the link to schedule with her and get everything going in the show notes. So definitely know that when she says she’s there for you, she really means it. You can connect with her, talk to her. And so Courtney, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to join me for being so open and honest and inspiring me to go watch Alice in Wonderland again. Just thank you for being you.

Courtney Hays (35:38)

Thank you. Yeah, no, it has been a very rewarding experience. Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate you taking the time to interview me and thank you everybody for listening and I hope everybody has a very, very un -birthday.

Whitney (36:03)

Well, I think that’s how we end it then. heard what Courtney had to say. And on behalf of Straight Up Care, thank you for joining us. Like, share, subscribe. It helps us so much as we continue to get our messages out there and reduce stigma. Thank you for listening.